{"id":4328,"date":"2024-02-19T16:33:07","date_gmt":"2024-02-19T16:33:07","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/mount-toll-productions.com\/?p=4328"},"modified":"2025-12-31T18:58:30","modified_gmt":"2025-12-31T18:58:30","slug":"ferrer-1","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mount-toll-productions.com\/?p=4328","title":{"rendered":"Ferrer – 1"},"content":{"rendered":"

ANSWERING THE MUSIC MAN<\/h2>\n

Atheism New and Old by John D. Ferrer<\/h3>\n

A Critique of Dan Barker\u2019s Brand of Atheism<\/h4>\n

In case you are not familiar with the reference to the \u201cMusic Man\u201d here\u2019s a link to Dan Barker\u2019s story<\/a> of going from a teenage evangelist and christian music composer to becoming an atheist.<\/p>\n

Dan Barker: Since I do not believe in a god, I am by default described as an atheist. Theists do not have a god: they have a belief. Atheism is the lack of theism, the lack of belief in god(s).<\/strong><\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Before we get started with Ferrer\u2019s critique, let me say that Dan Barker does not need my help defending himself from the likes of the authors of Answering the Music Man<\/a>. None of them would do well in a one-on-one debate with Barker. Perhaps that\u2019s why they wrote a book.<\/p>\n

In his book \u201cgodless\u201d Dan Barker says this about theists who are attempting to discredit him and other atheists.<\/p>\n

\u201cWhat they lack in logic they make up for in length.\u201d<\/em><\/h4>\n

This is certainly the case with John D. Ferrer. Barker\u2019s rather simple definition of Atheism contains just 40 words. Ferrer\u2019s response, on the other hand, exceeds 7,300 words.<\/p>\n

One would think that the best way for a theist to discredit an atheist would be to logically prove beyond all doubt that their god actually does exist. I expected that somewhere in Ferrer\u2019s 7,300 words he would be able to produce at least some semblance of a defense for his theism. But that\u2019s not what he does. Instead he spends the bulk of his 7,300 words arguing against Barker\u2019s definition<\/u> of the word \u201catheism\u201d. With that said, let\u2019s look at what Ferrer says about renown atheist Dan Barker.<\/p>\n

Here’s how he begins he defense\u2026 (underline is mine)<\/p>\n

“Words evolve over time, growing, losing, and changing de\ufb01nitions, all depending on \ufb01ckle social fashions<\/u>. The word \u201catheism\u201d is no exception. In the last ten to \ufb01fteen years, a new de\ufb01nition of \u201catheism has grown in popularity, threatening to replace the classic sense of the word. And people like Dan Barker are benefactors.”<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

He spends the rest of his wordy diatribe attempting to prove that Barker\u2019s definition of the word \u201catheism\u201d is dishonest. He also spends some of his 7,300 words belittling Barker on a personal level. I guess this is what you do (ad hominem) when you are unable to produce a defense of theism.<\/p>\n

Ferrer: “Is Barker just an intellectual hipster who can\u2019t stomach \u201cold-fashioned\u201d classics without a spritz of irony? He\u2019s in his seventies now, so \u201chipster\u201d probably isn\u2019t the right term for him. Although, I\u2019m sure he has rocked the tweed jacket and craft beer from time to time. Barker, however, is \ufb01rmly entrenched in a new socio-culture of atheism known, ironically, as New Atheism.”<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Ferrer attempts of discredit Barker\u2019s definition of \u201catheism\u201d and also to attack Barker\u2019s Freedom From Religion Foundation<\/a>. Ferrer not only doesn\u2019t like Barker\u2019s definition of atheism he doesn\u2019t like Barker\u2019s brand of atheism. He wants Barker to play nice. This coming from a man who is a \u201cteaching fellow\u201d for a pro-life organization that I’m sure, would have no issue taking away a woman\u2019s right to control her own body.<\/p>\n

Here’s what Ferrer says about what he calls Barker\u2019s \u201cnew atheism\u201d<\/p>\n

Ferrer: “New Atheists like Dan Barker would have to dull their blade a bit and learn to play nice with others. Dan Barker and his Freedom From Religion Foundation will likely persist as militant as ever, competing for territory, and promoting nontheism, secularism, and irreligion with all the fervor of an evangelistic crusade.”<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Here’s what Barker says about his evangelistic crusade.<\/p>\n

“Once a preacher always a preacher (in my case, at least), so the question now was, \u201cShould I preach atheism?\u201d When all is said and done, we can\u2019t help being who we are. I had developed certain habits and skills in the ministry and still wanted to change the world for the better. I am very concerned about our species’ preoccupation with superstition and irrationality and confident that if someone like me can be healed of such delusions so can others<\/em>“<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I have personally experienced “being healed of such delusions” and for me it was very freeing. Others (like Ferrer) are still stuck in their delusions. In my next blog we’ll explore the reasons why.<\/p>\n

Ferrer continues\u2026<\/p>\n

“He is not\u2026 the quiet, respectful, public atheist who \ufb02ies under the radar rather than drawing attention to himself. Nor is he the outlandish academic atheist squirreled away in his of\ufb01ce in the biology department at some college in the 1970s. New Atheism replaces peacemaking policies with verbal conquest; humble nonbelief becomes cocky secularism; timidity switches into boldness; and the pluralistic se la vie shifts to intolerant chants of \u201cStop that, or you\u2019re sued!\u201d It\u2019s clear that he is not the peacemaker.”<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Love this paragraph. Ferrer wants atheists, like Barker, to be humble, timid and not in the public view, while at the same time the likes of Ferrer are attempting to push their religious beliefs on the public. Based on Ferrer\u2019s credentials (which we’ll explore in the next blog) it could be assumed that he has no qualms about blurring the lines of separation of church and state. And when he attempts to overstep his bounds (as evangelicals often tend to do) and push his religious beliefs on the general public, Barker\u2019s foundation is there to protect the constitutional rights of the other citizens. So in that sense, I guess Barker is not a peacemaker. But then again, is Ferrer?<\/p>\n

Barker writes, \u201cIt turns out that atheism means much less than I had thought. It is merely the lack of theism. It is not a philosophy of life and it offers no values. Basic atheism is not a belief.\u201d<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I kept waiting for Ferrer to begin his presentation for the defense of the existence of his god, but he never does. He spends his next 5,000 words attempting to prove that Barker\u2019s definition of atheism is \u201cnew\u201d and \u201cfickle\u201d (making it trendy, and thus invalid). Ferrer contends that Barker\u2019s definition does not conform to ancient Greek etymology of the word Atheos and thus is not valid in today\u2019s world. Really? This is where he wants to go with his argument\u2026 to ancient Greek?<\/p>\n

Ferrer would prefer that rather than atheists saying, \u201cwe don\u2019t believe in gods\u201d they must say unequivocally that \u201cthere are no gods\u201d. Rather than theists shouldering the burden of proof that their god exists, Ferrer would prefer to shift the burden of proof to atheists. That way Barker and other atheists would be forced to prove that no gods exist.<\/p>\n

Why would that be important for Ferrer? It\u2019s simple! Since he can\u2019t prove his god exists, (which he demonstrates in his 7,300-word diatribe) he wants Barker to prove that gods \u201cdo not\u201d exist.<\/p>\n

Ferrer\u2019s desire to switch the burden of proof that \u201cno gods exist\u201d reminds me of Bertrand Russell<\/a>\u2019s theory of the Celestial teapot<\/a>. Russell\u2019s teapot theory is \u201can analogy\u201d designed to discount the need for a burden of proof regarding the non-existence of something (i.e. a God).<\/p>\n

Russell wrote<\/strong>: “If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.”<\/em><\/p>\n

Ferrer responds to Russell\u2019s teapot theory by saying that the question of God\u2019s existence is a little more pressing than\u2026 \u201cthe trivial dismissal of an orbiting teapot\u201d. Ferrer goes on to say that \u201cthere is a substantial case supporting the notion of the sensus divinitatis\u201d (the sense that a divinity exists) although he fails to give any supporting evidence other than his \u201csenses\u201d. What if I were to say that \u201cthere is a substantial case supporting the notion of the sensus teapotis”? Would that be enough proof that the celestial teapot actually exists? Certainly not! Let\u2019s be clear here; a \u201csense\u201d of the divine is not actual proof of the divine.<\/p>\n

Ferrer also doesn\u2019t like Barker\u2019s definition of agnosticism.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Barker: “People are invariably surprised to hear me say I am both an atheist and an agnostic, as if this somehow weakens my certainty. Agnosticism addresses knowledge; atheism addresses belief. The agnostic says, \u201cI don\u2019t have a knowledge that God exists. \u201cThe atheist says, \u201cI don\u2019t have a belief that God exists.\u201d Some agnostics are atheistic and some are theistic. Agnosticism is the refusal to take as a fact any statement for which there is insuf\ufb01cient evidence.\u201d<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

If Ferrer were being honest with himself (and with us), he might admit that he himself is an agnostic. Ferrer has a strong belief in his god but there is insufficient evidence to prove its existence, and therefore his belief (no matter how strong) cannot be taken as fact. He is indeed a theistic agnostic while I am an atheistic agnostic. He believes in his god (teapot), but he can\u2019t prove his god exists. I don\u2019t believe in his god, but I cannot prove that his god doesn\u2019t exist. In that light, Barker\u2019s use of agnosticism is perfectly valid. We\u2019ll expand more on this in next week\u2019s blog as we take a deeper dive into Ferrer\u2019s own believes.<\/p>\n

SO, WHAT\u2019S THE BIG DEAL? Ferrer continues,<\/strong><\/h4>\n
It can be true even if God exists<\/strong><\/h5>\n

Ferrer: “Perhaps the weirdest result with Barker\u2019s brand of atheism is that it doesn’t say anything about whether God exists. Even if God exists, Barker\u2019s atheism could be true. That\u2019s a strange brand of atheism, aligning just \ufb01ne with God\u2019s existence.”<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

On this one point, I have to agree with Ferrer (except for the part about a strange brand of atheism). I understand that my disbelief in gods does not mean that they absolutely don\u2019t exist. And I will continue in my non-belief until there is evidence to the contrary. However, here\u2019s what Ferrer proposes it would take to convince atheists that god actually does exist.<\/p>\n

Ferrer: “This means that even if God exists, even if God came down to Los Angeles, California, dictated the Bible on live TV, ended the California drought with forty days of raining Cabernet (wine), and personally moonwalked across the set of God \u2019s Not Dead III\u2014Barker\u2019s atheism would still be true so long as his atheism refers only to his lack of theism.”<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

How about rather than ending \u201cthe California drought with forty days of raining Cabernet\u201d, God ended world hunger or human trafficking, or the suffering caused by wars? Wouldn\u2019t godly kindness toward all<\/strong> mankind be more convincing to atheists like Barker and me than God doing the moonwalk on American TV? Get serious, Ferrer!<\/p>\n

Intellectual laziness<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Ferrer: (Barker’s definition of atheism) “fosters intellectual laziness. The only way to reach the intellectual high ground is to earn it. My point is that the \u201cdefault atheism\u201d view is self-serving for atheists. It can deceive atheists into thinking that they don\u2019t have to earn their academic high ground but can presume it while theists do all the work.”<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Does earning a master\u2019s in Apologetics and a PhD in Philosophy of Religion automatically award Ferrer with the \u201cintellectual high ground\u201d? (I think not, but more about that in my next blog.) Barker admits that he doesn’t have the education of a theologian, saying that it wasn’t that important to him.<\/p>\n

Barker: “Looking back, I can see that most of the religion courses (with a couple of notable exceptions) were simply glori\ufb01ed Sunday School classes and I don\u2019t remember that we delved very deeply into the evidences or arguments for or against Christianity. I believed that my education was secondary to my calling.”<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Ferrer continues,<\/p>\n

“What can we make of Barker’s Atheism? In the \ufb01nal evaluation, Barker\u2019s definition of atheism offers a strategic advantage for him. He never has a burden of proof in defending his nonbelief. If Dan Barker wants to wear the mantle of intellectual respectability, he is going to have to earn it just like anyone else. His de\ufb01nition of \u201catheism,\u201d \ufb01ts the pro\ufb01le of a pseudo-intellectual skeptic.<\/em>“<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The pot and the kettle.<\/strong><\/h3>\n

I take issue with Ferrer\u2019s claim that he has earned “intellectual respectability\u201d. Let’s say, for an example, that we were to ask Ferrer if he believes in Astrology. My guess, (based on his religious beliefs) would be that he does not. Would he say that he \u201cdoesn\u2019t believe in astrology\u201d? By his own argument that would be invalid. According to his own standards, he must say unequivocally that astrology is false and then accept the burden of proving that it is false. If he simply were to say that he \u201cdoesn\u2019t believe\u201d in astrology without offering any evidence debunking it, wouldn\u2019t that make him \u201ca pseudo-intellectual skeptic\u201d of astrology? Let\u2019s see how Ferrer\u2019s own words reveal him to be the pot.<\/p>\n

A reversal of Ferrer’s own words<\/h4>\n
\n

\u201cThe only way to reach the intellectual high ground is to earn it. It can deceive atheists (and theists) into thinking that they don\u2019t have to earn their academic high ground. If anyone wants to wear the mantle of intellectual respectability (on any topic), they are going to have to earn it just like anyone else.”<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

It might surprise you to learn that there are a number of universities that offer a master\u2019s degree in Astrology. Would Ferrer\u2019s limited knowledge of astrology make him a pseudo-intellectual skeptic? Is Ferrer implying that his master\u2019s in apologetics has earned him the intellectual high ground over someone who has earned a master’s in astrology? Perhaps for Ferrer it does, but for me a master\u2019s in astrology carries the same weight as a master\u2019s in apologetics.<\/p>\n

From where I stand<\/strong><\/h3>\n

It’s clear from Ferrer’s writings that he is convinced he has earned intellectual respectability. However, as we shall see in the next blog, he forfeits his intellectual respectability.\u00a0 It is curious that nowhere in Ferrer\u2019s seven thousand plus words does he ever say what he personally believes. We know what Dan Barker believes (or doesn\u2019t believe). He\u2019s been very clear about that. So, why doesn\u2019t Ferrer tell us what he believes?<\/p>\n

Coming next:<\/strong><\/h4>\n

We\u2019ll take a deeper dive into Ferrer\u2019s personal beliefs and as a result, perhaps come to understand why he has chosen not to reveal them in his critique of The Music Man.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

From Where I Stand<\/em><\/h4>\n

Feb. 19, 2024<\/b><\/p>\n

Dale Crum<\/em><\/p>\n

<Previous Post<\/a> \/ Next Post ><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

ANSWERING THE MUSIC MAN Atheism New and Old by John D. Ferrer A Critique of Dan Barker\u2019s Brand of Atheism In case you are not familiar with the reference to the \u201cMusic Man\u201d here\u2019s a link to Dan Barker\u2019s story of going from a teenage evangelist and christian music composer to becoming an atheist. Dan […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"nf_dc_page":"","WB4WB4WP_MODE":"","WB4WP_PAGE_SCRIPTS":"","WB4WP_PAGE_STYLES":"","WB4WP_PAGE_FONTS":"","WB4WP_PAGE_HEADER":"","WB4WP_PAGE_FOOTER":"","_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_feature_clip_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[26,16,25,6,5,1],"tags":[31,27,32,12,4,17,30],"class_list":["post-4328","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-atheism","category-christianity","category-dale-crum","category-evangelicals","category-redefining-words","category-uncategorized","tag-atheism","tag-dale-crum","tag-dan-barker","tag-evangelical","tag-from-where-i-stand","tag-leaving-christianity","tag-mt-toll-productions"],"yoast_head":"\nFerrer - 1 - Mount Toll Productions<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/mount-toll-productions.com\/?p=4328\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Ferrer - 1 - Mount Toll Productions\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"ANSWERING THE MUSIC MAN Atheism New and Old by John D. Ferrer A Critique of Dan Barker\u2019s Brand of Atheism In case you are not familiar with the reference to the \u201cMusic Man\u201d here\u2019s a link to Dan Barker\u2019s story of going from a teenage evangelist and christian music composer to becoming an atheist. 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